Author Topic: Net nutreuality  (Read 5663 times)

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2017, 02:30:34 AM »
Wider than the USA and the FCC yes. We use the "internet" in Kenya and the US rules spill over. The internet is, well, international, and not strictly restricted by geography. We see once in a while.

I don't quite see that.  Perhaps you can point to specific things in Pai's draft that you think is relevant to other countries.

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Here's a related but slightly different example. In 2005, Google hired Microsoft VP Dr Kai-Fu Lee to run Google China. Microsoft went to a US court and the US rules on "non compete" applied on an employee running a Google branch outside the US. Google of course argued jurisdiction and lost.

You lost me there.   I don't see any connection there to "net neutrality", the internet, the FCC, etc.   As far as I can tell, that seems to be a matter of labour contracts and so forth.   

It is about US law/rules applying to US company operations/branches outside the US. It means Verizon and Google may have to adhere to the FCC rules in Kenya. Assuming both companies have local presence.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2017, 02:59:46 AM »

Quote
Here's a related but slightly different example. In 2005, Google hired Microsoft VP Dr Kai-Fu Lee to run Google China. Microsoft went to a US court and the US rules on "non compete" applied on an employee running a Google branch outside the US. Google of course argued jurisdiction and lost.

You lost me there.   I don't see any connection there to "net neutrality", the internet, the FCC, etc.   As far as I can tell, that seems to be a matter of labour contracts and so forth.   

Quote
It is about US law/rules applying to US company operations/branches outside the US. It means Verizon and Google may have to adhere to the FCC rules in Kenya. Assuming both companies have local presence.

I am aware of the specific matter that you refer to.   I am not aware of any connection to the FCC or anything of the sort. As far as I can tell, the matter was a largely a straightforward "labour-contract dispute", in the context the man's "non-compete" agreements.  A "labour dispute"  between two US companies, filed in a USA court.   Whether the man was going to work in Timbukti or the Moon would, to my mind, not have been relevant.   

As far as a place like Kenya goes, we need not argue in the abstract.  Kenya has its own regulatory Communications Authority, and my guess those of its rules are the ones that Google and Verizon have to adhere to are in mostly in technical matters.   I have looked at what they do, and I am cannot see how they a US company operating in Kenya would be bound by any FCC regulations.  Perhaps you have some specifics in mind?
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Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2017, 03:25:34 AM »
Really MOON Ki. The CA rules and Kenyan law are silent on Net neutrality. If Verizon Kenya chokes access to YouTube, do you see the FCC rules as irrelevant?
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2017, 03:41:20 AM »
Really MOON Ki. The CA rules and Kenyan law are silent on Net neutrality.

That was not my point.    I was asking about the obligations of an American company operating in Kenya having to adhere to the FCC rules, rather that those of the CA.  A rather general response to your rather statement that

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It means Verizon and Google may have to adhere to the FCC rules in Kenya. Assuming both companies have local presence.

Nothing specific about "net neutrality" there, as far as I can see.   

Quote
If Verizon Kenya chokes access to YouTube, do you see the FCC rules as irrelevant?

Assuming that Verizon Kenya is a company whose operations are largely limited to Kenya (as the company's name implies) and those blocked from accessing Youtube are Verizon Kenya's customers in Kenya, my answer would be YES.   To the extent that you disagree and think the FCC might have any role to play, I'd be keen to read your legal explanation.   
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 03:45:32 AM »
The way I see it, the internet has experienced its phenomenal growth, because of neutrality.  Any other way, and the innovation that Robina claims it kills would actually have been suffocated.  A good analogy is IBM DOS vs MS-DOS.  And also Windows vs Linux - with the Linux platform leading the way in innovation as Microsoft seeks to stem it with vendor lock-in.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2017, 12:32:49 AM »
The US agrees with Robina

F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/technology/net-neutrality-repeal-vote.html
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2017, 04:42:38 AM »
The US agrees with Robina

F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/technology/net-neutrality-repeal-vote.html

Now we just need to brace ourselves for new innovations from Verizon, AT&T, Comcast na kadhalika now that we are virtually captives of the internet. *SMH*
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2017, 11:34:29 AM »
The US agrees with Robina

F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/14/technology/net-neutrality-repeal-vote.html

Now we just need to brace ourselves for new innovations from Verizon, AT&T, Comcast na kadhalika now that we are virtually captives of the internet. *SMH*

Not any more than we are captive of the phone, the auto, the aviation industry or even the health sector. Respect the free market.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline vooke

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2017, 11:39:32 AM »
Not any more than we are captive of the phone, the auto, the aviation industry or even the health sector. Respect the free market.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 11:42:55 AM »
Are you saying that Google Ballons and satellite stuff were stifled by net neutrality?https://www.wired.com/2010/06/you-dont-want-isps-to-innovate/

Yup. Providing cheap internet to the poor - like Facebook's internet.org - is "preferential treatment" that violates Net neutrality. It's a price control regime that denies companies the right to determine packaging and pricing for their own products. It's socialist reasoning [unsurprisingly] endorsed by liberals. Let telcos and ISPs sell broadband at their discretion. There is no monopoly and competition will thrive. Free market 101.

Google, Facebook, etc can gang up and set up their own internet. Create options not rules.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2017, 11:58:37 AM »
Not any more than we are captive of the phone, the auto, the aviation industry or even the health sector. Respect the free market.

Phones are crucial - any rules on pricing? Flying is crucial - any rules on ticketing? Heck, any rules on doctor fees?? The trouble with utilities is that you have to be very careful and selective what you designate a "utility". Roads and rails are utility and you can see the eons it has taken for the infrastructure to improve. The cost and traffic problems in most metropolis. It's only now that you have tubes and the private sector building novel solutions.

Consider the space industry. Imagine if NASA insisted it is the sole arbiter and imposed pricing rules. The innovators and investors would flee.

Scrapping Net neutrality will grow the internet. There will be low-cost carriers on top of the premium internet, corporate, middle class, etc. Niches and choices.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline vooke

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2017, 12:47:23 PM »
Are you saying that Google Ballons and satellite stuff were stifled by net neutrality?https://www.wired.com/2010/06/you-dont-want-isps-to-innovate/

Yup. Providing cheap internet to the poor - like Facebook's internet.org - is "preferential treatment" that violates Net neutrality. It's a price control regime that denies companies the right to determine packaging and pricing for their own products. It's socialist reasoning [unsurprisingly] endorsed by liberals. Let telcos and ISPs sell broadband at their discretion. There is no monopoly and competition will thrive. Free market 101.

Google, Facebook, etc can gang up and set up their own internet. Create options not rules.

Like what proof do you have for this?
They were stopped from slashing internet costs or something?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Dear Mami

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2017, 12:57:17 PM »
Not any more than we are captive of the phone, the auto, the aviation industry or even the health sector. Respect the free market.

Phones are crucial - any rules on pricing? Flying is crucial - any rules on ticketing? Heck, any rules on doctor fees??

Yes, Robina. In Kenya at least. Can't say nothin about the States though.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2017, 12:57:31 PM »
Are you saying that Google Ballons and satellite stuff were stifled by net neutrality?https://www.wired.com/2010/06/you-dont-want-isps-to-innovate/

Yup. Providing cheap internet to the poor - like Facebook's internet.org - is "preferential treatment" that violates Net neutrality. It's a price control regime that denies companies the right to determine packaging and pricing for their own products. It's socialist reasoning [unsurprisingly] endorsed by liberals. Let telcos and ISPs sell broadband at their discretion. There is no monopoly and competition will thrive. Free market 101.

Google, Facebook, etc can gang up and set up their own internet. Create options not rules.

Like what proof do you have for this?
They were stopped from slashing internet costs or something?

Imagine that. It need not be explicit denial; the rules alone discourage investment.


https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/27/16050446/facebook-net-neutrality-digital-colonialism-internet-org


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/12/facebook-free-basics-india-zuckerberg
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2017, 01:10:01 PM »
Not any more than we are captive of the phone, the auto, the aviation industry or even the health sector. Respect the free market.

Phones are crucial - any rules on pricing? Flying is crucial - any rules on ticketing? Heck, any rules on doctor fees??

Yes, Robina. In Kenya at least. Can't say nothin about the States though.

Personally I want "Auto neutrality". Why should I drive a cheap Saab while the rich get all those better options?
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline vooke

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2017, 01:20:13 PM »
Phones are crucial - any rules on pricing? Flying is crucial - any rules on ticketing? Heck, any rules on doctor fees?? The trouble with utilities is that you have to be very careful and selective what you designate a "utility". Roads and rails are utility and you can see the eons it has taken for the infrastructure to improve. The cost and traffic problems in most metropolis. It's only now that you have tubes and the private sector building novel solutions.

Consider the space industry. Imagine if NASA insisted it is the sole arbiter and imposed pricing rules. The innovators and investors would flee.

Scrapping Net neutrality will grow the internet. There will be low-cost carriers on top of the premium internet, corporate, middle class, etc. Niches and choices.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2017, 01:26:20 PM »

Personally I want "Auto neutrality". Why should I drive a cheap Saab while the rich get all those better options?
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2017, 01:37:51 PM »
Why are you using phony and irrelevant analogies?
Phones, flying,space...

Do you suggest telephony or transport is inferior to surfing?



It is the robust competition and freedom from controls that has grown the handset industry. There was never an FCC to strangle telephony.


How will scrapping it grow internet? 

To my mind, net neutrality simply ensures ISPs are no obstacles to development of internet (content) by neutering their oligopolistic/monopolistic tendencies.

Content developers have the power to compete with telcos. Shielding them with Net neutrality hurts growth because they do not need to worry about the internet.



Free speech is already choked by various bottlenecks. Twitter can block your account anytime using amorphous internal policy. Facebook, Twitter, Google - content providers 8) - are the big chokers of free speech. Amazingly these guys are the anti-FCC choir.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline vooke

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Re: Net nutreuality
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2017, 01:38:41 PM »

Imagine that. It need not be explicit denial; the rules alone discourage investment.


https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/27/16050446/facebook-net-neutrality-digital-colonialism-internet-org


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/12/facebook-free-basics-india-zuckerberg

When I think about it,
There was nothing noble about Facebook experiment; they just wanted to push their own content. The telcos opposed it because someone was moving their cheese,and succeeded because Facebook was evidently far from being altruistic.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.