Author Topic: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era  (Read 13595 times)

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2017, 07:18:48 AM »
These moves now expose the underbelly of bitcoin and other pritected-by-public-blockchain crypto.  This is a good thing for truly private coins.

And the "truly private coins" would be good for?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline bryan275

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • Reputation: 2581
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2017, 09:24:34 PM »
These moves now expose the underbelly of bitcoin and other pritected-by-public-blockchain crypto.  This is a good thing for truly private coins.

And the "truly private coins" would be good for?

Privacy from the money grabbing governments.  I must say it feels quite good engaging in trade beyond the hands of her majesty's revenue and customs.   

Offline bryan275

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 1419
  • Reputation: 2581
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2017, 09:34:03 PM »
Anyone watching Litecoin (LTC)?


Yes yes yes... The moonshot is finally here.



Yeah, it's great but don't get too excited (I know it's hard not to  :D). This is what the developer of Litecoin had to say:


Well the market excitement is beyond the powers of the developers.  I'm predicting LTC to 1k usd in Q1 2018

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2017, 06:55:49 PM »
Privacy from the money grabbing governments.  I must say it feels quite good engaging in trade beyond the hands of her majesty's revenue and customs.   

Most crime probably feels good at the time, but it is astonishing to see such a "cheerful" public admission.  I urge veritas to look into your IP address and then follow the directions here: https://www.gov.uk/report-an-unregistered-trader-or-business

Still, to your credit, you are not among those who believe in "we'll use the funny moneies to pay for goods and services".    Hardly anyone uses them for that, for two good reasons: (a) hardly anybody takes them for that, and (b) "regular monies" are still way ahead and will remain way ahead government-back "virtual currencies" replace them in the "way ahead".  Bitcoin is the most prominent of the funny monies.   Has been around for nearly a decade.    And people can do what with it in practice? (Other than supporting criminal activities.)

Even the most die-hard supporters of, say, bitcoin, have just been sitting on their "coins", and the basic thing driving most cryptocurencies is the belief that at some point one will be able to sell, at much higher prices, to some suckers.

Oh, this just in on another "anonymous" user of bitcoin: https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indicted-bank-fraud-and-money-laundering-support-terrorists
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2017, 07:56:46 PM »
Privacy from the money grabbing governments.  I must say it feels quite good engaging in trade beyond the hands of her majesty's revenue and customs.   

Most crime probably feels good at the time, but it is astonishing to see such a "cheerful" public admission.  I urge veritas to look into your IP address and then follow the directions here: https://www.gov.uk/report-an-unregistered-trader-or-business

Still, to your credit, you are not among those who believe in "we'll use the funny moneies to pay for goods and services".    Hardly anyone uses them for that, for two good reasons: (a) hardly anybody takes them for that, and (b) "regular monies" are still way ahead and will remain way ahead government-back "virtual currencies" replace them in the "way ahead".  Bitcoin is the most prominent of the funny monies.   Has been around for nearly a decade.    And people can do what with it in practice? (Other than supporting criminal activities.)

Even the most die-hard supporters of, say, bitcoin, have just been sitting on their "coins", and the basic thing driving most cryptocurencies is the belief that at some point one will be able to sell, at much higher prices, to some suckers.

Oh, this just in on another "anonymous" user of bitcoin: https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/long-island-woman-indicted-bank-fraud-and-money-laundering-support-terrorists

You're right. Bitcoin is an absolute failure as a common use currency and will never become one. What's more interesting is the technology behind it, the blockchain, but most people aren't interested in that at all.

Greed is what's driving the market now, with quite a few early adopters of bitcoin bailing out.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2017, 02:51:34 AM »
Bitcoin is an absolute failure as a common use currency and will never become one.

And it's bad news for all other "private" cryptocurrencies.  Too many people now thinking "I missed out on bitcoin, but if I buy this new one now and just sit on it ...".   Not surprisingly, it looks like some people are cleaning up by knocking off and peddling new cryptocurrencies just about every other day.   

Quote
What's more interesting is the technology behind it, the blockchain, but most people aren't interested in that at all.

And when they are interested, they simply don't bother to understand it.  I've read or heard numerous excited statements that equate "blockchain" with "bitcoin".

Quote
Greed is what's driving the market now, with quite a few early adopters of bitcoin bailing out.

Uncle Sam too is bailing out .... sort of.  An interesting "commentary" on what Uncle Sam thinks of the current craze: A few days ago it went to court seeking permission to sell BTC and BCH that were seized from a drug dealer.   The claim in the filing was essentially that the government should make some money while prices are still high.  Fair point.  The value of the stuff at the time of seizure was around $0.5m; it's now probably around $10m; and knows what it will be next week.. 

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4329433-87-Main.html

Judge immediately agreed.

The filing has two interesting bits.    One, a footnote says that the government got into the drug dealer's "wallets" and transferred his stash into a government "wallet", but it is rather coy on the "how".   Two, the government is wary of bitcoin types; the filing says that to avoid "loss or fraud", the stuff will be sold in several small batches.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2017, 09:15:20 AM »
Every failure you cite of crypto - devaluation, fraud, etc - can be countered with many more failures of fiat currency. There are numerous bank heists, corruption cases and devaluations worldwide involving fiat currency. Terrorism and corruption have existed for centuries and have been funded by fiat currency. You cite one Bitcoin terrorist... who funded all the others? Should we abandon the dollar or the euro for that? These crimes are not currency problems. Try banning greed and faith or religion first.

Recently Uncle Sam's global impunity and corruption have been exposed by Wikileaks whose survival is ensured by cryptocurrency. Uncle Sam froze all other funding channels. That's Uncle Sam's real beef - loss of control. However he's not as intransigent because he sees some value - it's a wait and see attitude at least according to Janet Yelen. Bitcoin is legal in a significant number of countries - OECD, Latin America, Asia, Africa, name it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory Not everyone buys into the doom theory.

There are many and counting legal merchants & retailers who accept bitcoin and other cryptos in their trade. Including giants Microsoft, Zynga, Expedia, Overstock, Virgin Galactic. http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10?IR=T/#virgin-galactic-3 Online Xmas gift shops I bet are milking it big.

Acceptance as legal tender is the proper measure of success for a currency. And this will be driven by stability. Volatility is a teething problem. Just like the brand new internet some speculators will reap as others lose - the sooner the bubble bursts the better.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2017, 09:51:10 AM »
The shilling has failed because some poor boys dug a tunnel in Thika... or well, Charterhouse closed. Smh.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2017, 10:58:23 AM »
Every failure you cite of crypto - devaluation, fraud, etc - can be countered with many more failures of fiat currency. There are numerous bank heists, corruption cases and devaluations worldwide involving fiat currency. Terrorism and corruption have existed for centuries and have been funded by fiat currency. You cite one Bitcoin terrorist... who funded all the others? Should we abandon the dollar or the euro for that? These crimes are not currency problems. Try banning greed and faith or religion first.

You missed it.  Here it is, again: I cite them mainly because I find them amusing ... the anonymity, which turns out to not quite so;  the security, which turns out to be not quite so; and so on.    Everything you say about fiat currency is true.  Totally true.  I just don't find any of it as amusing.   Federal government breaks into drug dealer's bitcoin wallet, grabs his stash, seeks urgent court permission to sell while suckers are still piling in.   That's my kind of stuff!

Quote
Bitcoin is legal in a significant number of countries - OECD, Latin America, Asia, Africa, name it.

Did I say I have any problems with its legality anywhere?

Quote
There are many and counting legal merchants & retailers who accept bitcoin and other cryptos in their trade. Including giants Microsoft, Zynga, Expedia, Overstock, Virgin Galactic. http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10?IR=T/#virgin-galactic-3

If you want to argue about the "many and counting", there are actually better sources than that "surprising" link.   Here's one that busy keeping track:   http://coinmap.org/#/world/35.93131671/16.21582031/8

According to that: after almost decade, it's around 11,200 (yes, some plus/minus on that).  And that's for the whole wide world.    That's not exactly a great deal, is it?

Whenever someone tells me about how more and more businesses are accepting bitcoin and more and more people are using them for purchases, I suggest a little experiment for them: (a) in any large city where you live or travel to, try and find out just how many businesses take bitcoin, and  (b) if you know people who have owned bitcoins for years, ask them about the extent of their purchases.

Quote
Online Xmas gift shops I bet are milking it big

Give us a few names of these big milkers.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2017, 12:18:56 PM »
MOON Ki there is not enough detail on the New York woman to finger crypto anonymity as the leak in her evil scheme. The multiple fraud, footprint on the jihad web, travel plans - these are sufficient wind for the anti-terror radar. Once captured her gadgets can reveal her transactions.

This applies to drug dealers and other criminals. Anonymity cannot make up for slack or stupidity.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2017, 01:12:07 PM »
Every failure you cite of crypto - devaluation, fraud, etc - can be countered with many more failures of fiat currency. There are numerous bank heists, corruption cases and devaluations worldwide involving fiat currency. Terrorism and corruption have existed for centuries and have been funded by fiat currency. You cite one Bitcoin terrorist... who funded all the others? Should we abandon the dollar or the euro for that? These crimes are not currency problems. Try banning greed and faith or religion first.

Recently Uncle Sam's global impunity and corruption have been exposed by Wikileaks whose survival is ensured by cryptocurrency. Uncle Sam froze all other funding channels. That's Uncle Sam's real beef - loss of control. However he's not as intransigent because he sees some value - it's a wait and see attitude at least according to Janet Yelen. Bitcoin is legal in a significant number of countries - OECD, Latin America, Asia, Africa, name it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory Not everyone buys into the doom theory.

There are many and counting legal merchants & retailers who accept bitcoin and other cryptos in their trade. Including giants Microsoft, Zynga, Expedia, Overstock, Virgin Galactic. http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10?IR=T/#virgin-galactic-3 Online Xmas gift shops I bet are milking it big.

Acceptance as legal tender is the proper measure of success for a currency. And this will be driven by stability. Volatility is a teething problem. Just like the brand new internet some speculators will reap as others lose - the sooner the bubble bursts the better.


This is where bitcoin has failed, in the real world. Tell us, what are the transaction fees for, say, paying for goods worth Sh1k with bitcoin and how long would it, on average, take for the transaction to be confirmed? I hope you'll see why I, a blockchain devotee, have abandoned bitcoin but not the blockchain and cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin paved the road but unfortunately, in its current implementation, will never be the currency of the future. There are other much better crypto implementations out there, for example Litecoin and Ethereum which do the same job as bitcoin but much much more efficiently.


Think of what happened to the likes of Archie (the first search engine), Lyco, Yahoo search, AltaVista, Excite, etc. during the rise of the internet. They were the pioneers. Where are they today?

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2017, 08:35:43 PM »
MOON Ki there is not enough detail on the New York woman to finger crypto anonymity as the leak in her evil scheme. The multiple fraud, footprint on the jihad web, travel plans - these are sufficient wind for the anti-terror radar. Once captured her gadgets can reveal her transactions.

This applies to drug dealers and other criminals. Anonymity cannot make up for slack or stupidity.

That wasn't my point, which is as follows. 

All those people are using bitcoin because of the promised anonymity, but that is not guaranteed.    Note the case in which a US judge has already ruled that a US "exchange" must reveal the identity of some its users to the IRS; some of the more intrusive requests were denied.   How do you think a judge would rule in a case of "we need to really poke our noses into all this because we have proof of people using bitcoin to fund terrorism"?   

The IRS case was a limited one.   In the EU things are already moving in a broad fashion.  On Friday: 

Quote
The European Parliament and the European Council agreed to a new set of rules on Friday that target exchange platforms for bitcoin and other virtual currencies.

The new measures would require platforms that previously allowed users to remain anonymous to identify them.

- Requires platforms that transfer bitcoin and "wallet" providers that hold cryptocurrencies for clients to identify users.

- Limits use of pre-paid payment cards.

- Raises transparency requirements for company and trust owners.

- Allows national investigators more access to information, including national bank account registers.

- Grants access to data on the beneficiaries of trusts to "persons who can demonstrate a legitimate interest"


Europe's Justice Commissioner Vera Jourova hailed the new rules, saying: "Today's agreement will bring more transparency to improve the prevention of money laundering and to cut off terrorist financing."
http://www.dw.com/en/bitcoin-eu-approves-cryptocurrency-clampdown-to-combat-terrorism-financing/a-41820170

Maybe the EU too has had its global impunity and corruption  exposed and the real beef is a loss of control?   Perhaps. I don't know. But I don't see that it matters.   What matters is this: The anonymity that users of cryptocurrencies claim is a huge "plus" might have been tolerated when it was just a small band of leftist geeks privately playing with their funny money and with themselves, but increasingly that will no longer be the case.  Consider that in light of some of your statements, such as that

Quote
Wikileaks whose survival is ensured by cryptocurrency.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2017, 01:19:22 AM »
However he's not as intransigent because he sees some value - it's a wait and see attitude at least according to Janet Yelen.

I finally got to look at what Yellen actually said at that press conference.   Yours is a very "interesting" and "optimistic" interpretation.

First, her specific comment on "the future" was on the narrower issue of some central banks around the world looking at issuing their own virtual currencies.   As far as the USA goes,  here is what she said:

Quote
"I really want to caution, this is not something the Federal Reserve is seriously considering at this stage. While we're looking at research on this topic, there are, I think to my mind, limited benefits from introducing it, a limited need for it and some substantial concerns."

To the extent that one wishes to interpret that as "wait and see", it's really a "wait and see" on a "virtual dollar" or whatever the Fed might be thinking of in its research.

Second, she did say some things about bitcoin, but I see little that is positive in them.   According to her, it's a highly speculative asset, not a stable source of value, and hardly anybody uses it for  pay for anything anyway.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2017, 01:53:49 AM »
Cryptos are

1. Decentralized - this is the feature that saves Wikileaks from the totalitarian Uncle Sam. It's not illegal to fund them, just impossible to use fiat currency. Also the Fed cannot issue extra coins. This freedom from the state and the central bank is a big deal and is the real intent of crypto after the 07-09 financial crisis.

2. Partially anonymous but not private - this implies you must mind your steps if your intents are unlawful. Criminals must use unregistered computers, mask IPs, avoid exchanges, switch wallets, etc to remain anonymous. Safer than fiat but not foolproof.

In real commerce, as a legal tender, neither of the two features is applicable especially in B2B and B2C transactions. P2P exchanges however will thrive in crypto.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2017, 03:21:45 AM »
Cryptos are

1. Decentralized - this is the feature that saves Wikileaks from the totalitarian Uncle Sam. It's not illegal to fund them, just impossible to use fiat currency. Also the Fed cannot issue extra coins. This freedom from the state and the central bank is a big deal and is the real intent of crypto after the 07-09 financial crisis.

2. Partially anonymous but not private - this implies you must mind your steps if your intents are unlawful. Criminals must use unregistered computers, mask IPs, avoid exchanges, switch wallets, etc to remain anonymous. Safer than fiat but not foolproof.

In real commerce, as a legal tender, neither of the two features is applicable especially in B2B and B2C transactions. P2P exchanges however will thrive in crypto.

Yes, yes, ... I am aware of the standard story.  Some quick comments:

(1) My point about Wikileaks is that those using bitcoins to fund it and relying on anonymity might well have second thoughts with the "change in weather".   

On: "freedom from the state and the central bank is a big deal and is the real intent of crypto after the 07-09 financial crisis":

- Freedom to do what exactly?   To fund Wikileaks?   I should like to believe that people have a bit more than that in mind.   To use for goods and services?  Hardly anybody uses the funny money for that.

- And how exactly bitcoin etc. has actually-helped/would-help with that?   If a similar financial crisis were to occur today, how would bitcoin be different from any other speculative asset that one might have?   Given its volatility, do you see anyone really going into bitcoin as an "umbrella" for a rainy day?   And the same question for all the one-new-one-each-day cryptocurrencies that are popping up all over the place.   

(2): I don't support criminal activities, so I don't see much in promoting a cryptocurrency on the basis of what criminals can get away with and how.  I hope bitcoin types can come up with better "rationale".

Yes, P2P will thrive, but to what end?  Presumably a major point in money is its actual use, in the production and acquisition of goods, services, etc. ... not just something people endlessly pass between each other.   

All this has got me thinking in a different direction, and I have a question that you might be able to answer: bitcoin has been around for almost a decade now.   In that time, what exactly has it been good for?   (You may skip supporting Assange and criminals.)
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2017, 05:29:49 AM »
One for Empedocles: I assume you are in Nairobi ... what do serious people think of this sort of stuff?

From the Chairman of the Blockchain Association of Kenya at their Big Event:

Quote
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ1augcW0AEadBn.jpg

Bizarre but entertaining stuff, including a session of "Warembo in Bitcoin Biashara".




Looks like they cleaned up at this event---thousands of shillings per head---and are planning to do repeats.    Mining Kenyan pockets is undoubtedly easier ...

I took a look at their webpage.   Most, if not all of the links, lead to the same page, which hasn't been checked for contradictions and misinformation.


MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2017, 11:12:49 AM »
Wikileak activists are well known and are not hiding behind anonymity. They don't need it. It is not illegal to fund or support Wikileaks; this is why the US has to resort to trumped up rape charges against Mr Assange. They cannot charge him with treason because he will plead the 1st - he is a journalist - and would get asylum in half the world. The independence of crypto is all Wikileaks needs and it works perfectly.

Criminality is abuse of crypto and is not the essence. It is about the state. If you are a Russian in the west and wish to fund anti-Putin activists in Moscow, you are better off anonymous. It's literally a life and death issue yet you are not a criminal. You may find polonium in your tea :o The same can be said of the Chinese, the Saudis and many other draconian regimes. Even in Kenya you may want to support NASA anonymously - without getting into someones' bad books 8)

Decentralization and anonymity are a very strong combination. The state cannot shut down crypto - unlike Visa or Paypal - and with some caution you can maintain your anonymity.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Empedocles

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 823
  • Reputation: 15758
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2017, 12:27:43 PM »
One for Empedocles: I assume you are in Nairobi ... what do serious people think of this sort of stuff?

From the Chairman of the Blockchain Association of Kenya at their Big Event:

Quote
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQ1augcW0AEadBn.jpg

Bizarre but entertaining stuff, including a session of "Warembo in Bitcoin Biashara".




Looks like they cleaned up at this event---thousands of shillings per head---and are planning to do repeats.    Mining Kenyan pockets is undoubtedly easier ...

I took a look at their webpage.   Most, if not all of the links, lead to the same page, which hasn't been checked for contradictions and misinformation.

Yeah, I spent at least 7-8 months in .ke per year.

I was invited to the event but declined. A good friend of mine went (@ Sh2k a head) and found it was more of an exchangers meeting than anything else i.e. use me to exchange your KES to bitcoin and you'll make tons of money...guaranteed. This was not the first of such meetings where gullible Kenyans are being suckered in. A few weeks ago, one such get together was supposed to be graced by the Satoshi Nakamoto himself (he unfortunately missed his flight :D). Most people are being fleeced big time here, with the likes of Bitclub Network etc.

The problem is we as Kenyans don't research at all.

The few serious people I know, well, we do a lot of independent research and invest what we're willing to lose. We're not many but so far every single one I personally know has made money even though we don't use cryptos as a currency (one time last year I tried it out by buying my son a game on Steam using bitcoin).

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2017, 04:00:55 AM »
Wikileak activists are well known and are not hiding behind anonymity. They don't need it. It is not illegal to fund or support Wikileaks.   

I know that it is not illegal.   Now, go to https://wikileaks.org/ and take a look at the page begging for donations.    One can pay through credit card, Paypal, etc. ... but for payment by bitcoin there is a "special note":

Quote
Bitcoin is a secure and anonymous digital currency. Bitcoins cannot be easily tracked back to you.
https://shop.wikileaks.org/donate

Certainly looks like somebody there thinks there is something to anonymity.  That's why I too think there is something to it.

Quote
This is why the US has to resort to trumped up rape charges against Mr Assange. They cannot charge him with treason because he will plead the 1st - he is a journalist - and would get asylum in half the world.   The independence of crypto is all Wikileaks needs and it works perfectly.


Not everyone is as confident about that as you are.   As an example, here is a different view from a couple of people who ought to know: http://www.newsweek.com/could-assange-claim-first-amendment-defense-590773

Anyways ... the Swedes dropped the rape charges against the fellow.   So, where is he now?   Freely roaming half the world?

Oh, I found this one amusing: Looking at old stuff in places like bitcointalk, it looks like the initial heroes (supposedly including Satoshi himself) weren't too keen to be associated with Wikileaks. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1735.msg26999#msg26999

Quote
Criminality is abuse of crypto and is not the essence. It is about the state. If you are a Russian in the west and wish to fund anti-Putin activists in Moscow, you are better off anonymous. It's literally a life and death issue yet you are not a criminal. You may find polonium in your tea :o The same can be said of the Chinese, the Saudis and many other draconian regimes. Even in Kenya you may want to support NASA anonymously - without getting into someones' bad books 8)

Decentralization and anonymity are a very strong combination. The state cannot shut down crypto - unlike Visa or Paypal - and with some caution you can maintain your anonymity.

I have given opinions on the "anonymity".    I am now at the stage where I simply find it amusing, for the following reason.

There seems to be some hope that bitcoin etc. will get to the point of being something like "normal currency"---used routinely to pay for goods and services etc.  Once the speculators leave, things will stabilize, and it will be back to "normal currency" stuff.   Etc. Etc. Etc.  But most people, in almost all their monetary transactions, are never concerned with fighting draconian governments or the military-industrial complex or whatever and so have little use for the "anonymity".  As a general rule, when most people part with their money, they want the recipient to know exactly where it is coming from.   

Anecdotal evidence is not proof, but I did a little experiment on my dinner companions this evening.   The experiment consisted of asking three questions and then "evaluating" the answers: (a) "in the last 5 years, have you been involved in any financial transactions in which you wished to remain anonymous?", (b) "for the next 5 years, do you think you will be involved in any financial transactions in which anonymity will be important"?, and (c) "for what reason would ever you get into cryptocurrencies?"

Yes, it was a small sample and whatever.   But I would be happy to bet on the extension of the results to a much larger group.   And what were the results?  Try the same small experiment on the next 10 people that you run into.   

The number of businesses that take cryptocurrencies and number of people who actually use cryptocurrencies for anything other than speculation are pathetically small.  Why is that?   I don't know, but in the case of bitcoin I suspect that part of it has to do with the fact that quite a few bitcoin groupies keep harping on things---"decentralized", "anonymous", ...---that have nothing to do with how most people actually use money.   Of course, there is now  a great deal of interest in cryptocurrency, but it is all about people dreaming of making free, easy money ... when they eventually convert to real money.    Quite understandable; who among would have any problems with free and easy money.    But we are now in the region of foolishness and scams and ... To my mind, it makes little sense to continue insisting on some fuzzy, "noble" goals that have little to do with current reality.

We are now in Great-Scams territory.    And I don't mean just the obvious pyramid schemes or the "pay-to-learn" talks by clueless "experts".    Just take a look at the staggering number of cryptocurrencies that keep popping up and at increasing rates.   Here is the 2017 list so far:

https://bitinfocharts.com/new-cryptocurrencies-2017.html

And what exactly are they offering?  Take a look at the eye-watering numbers from "The JP Morgan of Cryptobanks" (last day for 6% discount):

https://crypterium.io/?ref=d2930094a937088043c8db62&gclid=CjwKCAiApdPRBRAdEiwA84bo3wOaF4Wr7MUGhyIAd_8qkjmFCa_X_h0aosZA8XvQkoDUoV-akLT-3BoC22EQAvD_BwE
 
When the dust finally settles, most or all of these private cryptocurrencies will probably be good for just one thing.   Real estate.   This kind:

http://www.lunarland.com/
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Nefertiti

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 10810
  • Reputation: 26106
  • Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Oop
Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2017, 12:17:24 PM »
Asking your friends if they made anonymous purchases or transactions is an oxymoron.

Cypto is currency with a niche - designed to actually solve a problem - not just another channel or sovereign symbol. Crypto is not here to supplant the fiat, just an option for those in need of it. I see no reason for its demise anymore than the constantly devalued shilling.

It's funny to read about the crypto dollar. Imagine that - freedom from the state by the state. The only development now is more solutions to safeguard and tighten the anonymity.

Doom prophecy is a necessary stage in most great inventions.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527