Author Topic: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era  (Read 13524 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« on: December 01, 2017, 04:19:26 PM »
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/news/Bitcoin-loses-over-fifth-its-value--less-than-24-hours/539546-4210248-517qdy/index.html

Offline vooke

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 12:34:26 PM »
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kadudu

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 01:11:07 AM »
Someone will eventually loose very badly. Just a question of time.

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 08:03:16 PM »
Someone will eventually loose very badly. Just a question of time.
If you have money you know you can afford to lose, do it. You may end up rich.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 05:36:07 PM »
Bitcoin is here to stay. These are teething problems caused by greed. Currency is for transacting, trading and saving - not a commodity, stock or investment like greedy speculators are doing with cryptos. The blockchain came up after 2007-09 financial crisis when folks lost faith in the Fed. Bitcoin is a true market currency because there is no Fed to stabilize it - totally depends on supply and demand. So I don't see folks discarding cyrptos - in fact there are people buying Bitcoins and Ethereums big right now during this fake meltdown. Bitcoin saved wikileaks and other pariahs who work under water. The secrecy and independence are unprecedented. Growing acceptance by states and business will make it stable with time.

In short I will not sell my BTC.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 05:59:30 PM »
Bitcoin's other strength - besides secrecy & state-free independence - is scarcity. Which is caused by power-sapping mining as opposed to fiat paper printing.  Most people think the heavy power consumption is a problem 8) I think Elon Musk is Satoshi Nakamoto. He lies about it.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 08:27:00 PM »
How much was it when you bought?

Bitcoin is here to stay. These are teething problems caused by greed. Currency is for transacting, trading and saving - not a commodity, stock or investment like greedy speculators are doing with cryptos. The blockchain came up after 2007-09 financial crisis when folks lost faith in the Fed. Bitcoin is a true market currency because there is no Fed to stabilize it - totally depends on supply and demand. So I don't see folks discarding cyrptos - in fact there are people buying Bitcoins and Ethereums big right now during this fake meltdown. Bitcoin saved wikileaks and other pariahs who work under water. The secrecy and independence are unprecedented. Growing acceptance by states and business will make it stable with time.

In short I will not sell my BTC.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 09:47:40 PM »
13.00 USD in 2012.

How much was it when you bought?

Bitcoin is here to stay. These are teething problems caused by greed. Currency is for transacting, trading and saving - not a commodity, stock or investment like greedy speculators are doing with cryptos. The blockchain came up after 2007-09 financial crisis when folks lost faith in the Fed. Bitcoin is a true market currency because there is no Fed to stabilize it - totally depends on supply and demand. So I don't see folks discarding cyrptos - in fact there are people buying Bitcoins and Ethereums big right now during this fake meltdown. Bitcoin saved wikileaks and other pariahs who work under water. The secrecy and independence are unprecedented. Growing acceptance by states and business will make it stable with time.

In short I will not sell my BTC.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Empedocles

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 09:53:23 PM »
How much was it when you bought?

Bitcoin is here to stay. These are teething problems caused by greed. Currency is for transacting, trading and saving - not a commodity, stock or investment like greedy speculators are doing with cryptos. The blockchain came up after 2007-09 financial crisis when folks lost faith in the Fed. Bitcoin is a true market currency because there is no Fed to stabilize it - totally depends on supply and demand. So I don't see folks discarding cyrptos - in fact there are people buying Bitcoins and Ethereums big right now during this fake meltdown. Bitcoin saved wikileaks and other pariahs who work under water. The secrecy and independence are unprecedented. Growing acceptance by states and business will make it stable with time.

In short I will not sell my BTC.

I'll chime in.

I bought my first lot in November 2015, got 6.25 BTC for ~Sh250k via Bitpesa. Then added 1 or 2 (depending on my pockets) during the next few months. Haven't liquidated any yet but I'll be doing it very soon.

I've lost hope in BTC and I firmly believe it's not going to become a replacement currency anytime soon, if at all. Also, at the moment, too many people jumping in without a clue on what blockchain is.

Interesting read:

Quote
Joe Kennedy is the father of former president John F. Kennedy.

Joe made most of his money in the stock market. He traded stocks in the roaring 20s when there was little regulation and "anything goes" attitude surrounding all of Wall Street.

Joe famously avoided the Great Depression, and stock market crash of 1929. He sold his entire portfolio days before the crash. But how did he do it? This one anecdote explains it all:

"Joe Kennedy exited the stock market in timely fashion after a shoeshine boy gave him some stock tips. He figured that when the shoeshine boys have tips, the market is too popular for its own good."

A theory also advanced by Bernard Baruch, another vested interest who described the scene before the big Crash: "Taxi drivers told you what to buy. The shoeshine boy could give you a summary of the day's financial news as he worked with rag and polish. An old beggar who regularly patrolled the street in front of my office now gave me tips and, I suppose, spent the money I and others gave him in the market. My cook had a brokerage account and followed the ticker closely. Her paper profits were quickly blown away in the gale of 1929."

Offline vooke

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 10:12:22 PM »
Bitcoin's other strength - besides secrecy & state-free independence - is scarcity. Which is caused by power-sapping mining as opposed to fiat paper printing.  Most people think the heavy power consumption is a problem 8) I think Elon Musk is Satoshi Nakamoto. He lies about it.

Artificial scarcity
Artificial demand

The technology has 1001 applications but BTC is falling BIG
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 10:15:07 PM »
Quote
Joe Kennedy is the father of former president John F. Kennedy.

Joe made most of his money in the stock market. He traded stocks in the roaring 20s when there was little regulation and "anything goes" attitude surrounding all of Wall Street.

Joe famously avoided the Great Depression, and stock market crash of 1929. He sold his entire portfolio days before the crash. But how did he do it? This one anecdote explains it all:

"Joe Kennedy exited the stock market in timely fashion after a shoeshine boy gave him some stock tips. He figured that when the shoeshine boys have tips, the market is too popular for its own good."

A theory also advanced by Bernard Baruch, another vested interest who described the scene before the big Crash: "Taxi drivers told you what to buy. The shoeshine boy could give you a summary of the day's financial news as he worked with rag and polish. An old beggar who regularly patrolled the street in front of my office now gave me tips and, I suppose, spent the money I and others gave him in the market. My cook had a brokerage account and followed the ticker closely. Her paper profits were quickly blown away in the gale of 1929."

Distinction:

-The Bitcoin bubble is bursting/will burst because of speculation. This is quite separate from Bitcoin itself. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a medium. Because of this, the volatility dissuades its acceptance as an exchange. I can bet even drug dealers are facing a nightmare.

-Once the speculators get burnt and move on, it will take some time for trading and merchandising - of actual goods and services - to pick up. Unfortunately you cannot keep human behavior even out of  the anonymous market. The currency has to be fairly non-volatile for confidence to grow.

Realize cryptocurrency is a real advancement almost like paper money during barter trade. The money markets did not die off after 1929, did they? The upside beats the downside and improvements will come along the way.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Empedocles

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 10:28:35 PM »
Distinction:

-The Bitcoin bubble is bursting/will burst because of speculation. This is quite separate from Bitcoin itself. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a medium. Because of this, the volatility dissuades its acceptance as an exchange. I can bet even drug dealers are facing a nightmare.

-Once the speculators get burnt and move on, it will take some time for trading and merchandising - of actual goods and services - to pick up. Unfortunately you cannot keep human behavior even out of  the anonymous market. The currency has to be fairly non-volatile for confidence to grow.

Realize cryptocurrency is a real advancement almost like paper money during barter trade. The money markets did not die off after 1929, did they? The upside beats the downside and improvements will come along the way.

I agree with you that when the speculators get burned, they'll run in droves, crashing the market. I was actually waiting for that so I could pick up some more BTC on the "cheap". But it's over for me now.

Unfortunately, from where I stand, BTC is and can never become a currency like the KES or USD. The backbone, the blockchain, is not laid out for that. Too slow and handles very few transactions compared to, say, VISA. Look at the current unconfirmed transactions. One has to wait for a long time for any payment to go through unless one is willing to pay much more in transaction fees to entice the miners.

Satoshi originally designed it as a store of value, just like gold. The gold price also fluctuates on a daily basis. You can't, for example, use BTC or gold to plan your next weeks shopping as you have no clue what it's value is going to be by then. It might be higher or lower, just like with gold.

Have a look at IOTA or Ethereum. Now those are interesting concepts and could dethrone BTC as real and viable currencies.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 12:16:13 AM »
Unfortunately, from where I stand, BTC is and can never become a currency like the KES or USD. The backbone, the blockchain, is not laid out for that. Too slow and handles very few transactions compared to, say, VISA.

And for reasons that go well beyond what you state, even after the speculators run off and end up crying in their beer.    I am no economics expert, but, as far as I can tell, one reason is that although governments are free to print as much "regular money" as they like, the general idea is that the value of money will correspond to the production and supply of goods and services.    The degree of "decoupling" is a major part of the explanation for the difference between the US Fed's "quantitative easing" and Mugabe's Central Bank printing by the truckload. The idea of a currency whose value is solely determined by how much gets "minted" and how many suckers can be persuaded to line up is ...

Another reason is general acceptance.    Which are people more likely to accept: government-backed money of some fuzzy, "decentralized"  electronic stuff?    Robina says that the speculators are the problem and the whole point is "for trading and merchandising - of actual goods and services".   But how many people or businesses are actually dealing in bitcoins without a reference to the "inferior currencies" (e.g. KES and USD)?     Elsewhere Robina writes that

Quote
Satoshi has made me rich God bless him.
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=6172.msg49233#msg49233

What does "rich" mean?    Is 50 bitcoins considered rich?   25 or 1000?  I'm sure she has her own answer.   But for me and, I suspect, most people,  to determine whether a person with X bitcoins was rich or not, one would probably do a conversion (at the prevailing rate) to "inferior currencies" (e.g. KES and USD).

I suspect that at the end of the day, excluding a handful of geeks---and they are called geeks for a reason---people who have been buying bitcoins, accepting payment in bitcoins, ... all have in mind a nice payout in "regular money"---the "inferior" stuff.   Here's a question: how many people with bitcoins actually use them for goods and services, and how many are just sitting on them?   And if the latter, what is the reason?

On the "broader scale", Ken Rogoff at Harvard has recently been emphasizing some fairly obvious points to those who think that these funny currencies will take over.  The first is that governments simply won't allow it:

Quote
It is folly to think that Bitcoin will ever be allowed to supplant central-bank-issued money. It is one thing for governments to allow small anonymous transactions with virtual currencies; indeed, this would be desirable. But it is an entirely different matter for governments to allow large-scale anonymous payments, which would make it extremely difficult to collect taxes or counter criminal activity.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/bitcoin-long-term-price-collapse-by-kenneth-rogoff-2017-10

And the second is

Quote
Finally, it is hard to see what would stop central banks from creating their own digital currencies and using regulation to tilt the playing field until they win. The long history of currency tells us that what the private sector innovates, the state eventually regulates and appropriates.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/bitcoin-long-term-price-collapse-by-kenneth-rogoff-2017-10

One of things that has recently excited Bitcoin types is Japan's new regulations on virtual currencies.   As far as I can tell, much of the excitement is misplaced.   

I am no expert on these virtual-currency matters, but here's how I see it: The general idea of virtual currency appears to have some benefits, and these may well become widespread; the specific idea of blockchain appears to have many applications outside bitcoin, and quite a few people are looking into those.    Nothing there depends on whether bitcoin itself even survives.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Empedocles

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 11:50:49 AM »
Another reason is general acceptance.    Which are people more likely to accept: government-backed money of some fuzzy, "decentralized"  electronic stuff?    Robina says that the speculators are the problem and the whole point is "for trading and merchandising - of actual goods and services".   But how many people or businesses are actually dealing in bitcoins without a reference to the "inferior currencies" (e.g. KES and USD)?     

Exactly.

Read this a couple of days ago in Reddit:

Quote
Bitcoin is a horrible currency.

Currencies have three jobs: 1) Being a Means of Exchange, 2) Storing Value, and 3) Being a unit of account. Bitcoin doesn't do any one of them better than other currencies.

The Unit of Account concept is simple. If you have to look up how many bitcoins are required to buy a pizza or convert it in your head to dollars then it's not a unit of account. In fact, the value of a bitcoin is never talked about in relation to goods and services, it's always in terms of dollars or another currency. The US is the Unit of Account in this sense, so Bitcoin hasn't yet developed this use.

The next use is as a Store of Value. This is the one that a lot of people hang their hats on, because the technology itself puts a cap on how many bitcoins can exist and therefore inflation is difficult to accomplish... only that's not really right. In order for something to be a useful Store of Value then the price of it has to be at least a little predictable. You know so that I can pay you today for a hamburger on Tuesday. Business depends upon paying when you have money to get what you need when you need it (usually when you don't have money). If the value of the currency varies wildly over a short period of time then these deals fall apart as one person or the other is invariably screwed by overpaying or underpaying as the value of the unit of exchange is about as constant as a drunk stumbling home from the bar. On November 7th a Bitcoin was worth something like $6,973 on the 12th it was worth $5,845 and on the 17th it was worth $7,843. Good luck trying to figure out the future value of the currency or trying to figure out how much you can spend now and still cover groceries next week.

People aren't buying Bitcoin to store value, they're buying to speculate. Think about it, if you sold bitcoin on the 7th, bought that same bitcoin back on the 12th and then sold it again on the 17th then you would have made money. THAT action is a major driving force in the value of the currency, and that is also a problem.

That brings us to the final function of a currency and the one that the Bitcoin has made the most headway, as a medium of exchange. Bitcoins are used to buy and sell goods. It is often used as an alternative method of converting currencies to the big banks that tend to charge fees to change currencies. It's also used in a variety of transactions that require some degree of secrecy. These are good uses.

So, one of the reasons why Bitcoin is a problem is because there are two uses. The first are the standard currency uses that will keep Bitcoin going as long as it is useful for those purposes. The second is the speculative bubble, people who buy a coin for the purpose of selling it at a later date to make a profit (as opposed to a purchase). It's really hard to separate the two because often the people who make the trades themselves don't know.

But, as a general rule, look for a crash whenever the value of the Bitcoin rises rapidly without a corresponding increase in adoption of velocity of transaction.

This news just in:
Quote

Robina, don't get me wrong; I'm quite satisfied with what I've so far gained with BTC (paper value so far) and the blockchain for me is one of the most important concepts of software I've ever seen. Unfortunately, as can seen above, at the moment BTC is absolutely useless as a currency.

Quote
Finally, it is hard to see what would stop central banks from creating their own digital currencies and using regulation to tilt the playing field until they win. The long history of currency tells us that what the private sector innovates, the state eventually regulates and appropriates.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/bitcoin-long-term-price-collapse-by-kenneth-rogoff-2017-10

One of things that has recently excited Bitcoin types is Japan's new regulations on virtual currencies.   As far as I can tell, much of the excitement is misplaced. 

The banks are working on their own blockchain currency. Check out Ripple. Will it work? Who knows.




Offline RV Pundit

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 06:53:33 PM »
Plain ponzi. I won't engage in it.

Offline bryan275

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »
Another reason is general acceptance.    Which are people more likely to accept: government-backed money of some fuzzy, "decentralized"  electronic stuff?    Robina says that the speculators are the problem and the whole point is "for trading and merchandising - of actual goods and services".   But how many people or businesses are actually dealing in bitcoins without a reference to the "inferior currencies" (e.g. KES and USD)?     

Exactly.

Read this a couple of days ago in Reddit:

Quote
Bitcoin is a horrible currency.

Currencies have three jobs: 1) Being a Means of Exchange, 2) Storing Value, and 3) Being a unit of account. Bitcoin doesn't do any one of them better than other currencies.

The Unit of Account concept is simple. If you have to look up how many bitcoins are required to buy a pizza or convert it in your head to dollars then it's not a unit of account. In fact, the value of a bitcoin is never talked about in relation to goods and services, it's always in terms of dollars or another currency. The US is the Unit of Account in this sense, so Bitcoin hasn't yet developed this use.

The next use is as a Store of Value. This is the one that a lot of people hang their hats on, because the technology itself puts a cap on how many bitcoins can exist and therefore inflation is difficult to accomplish... only that's not really right. In order for something to be a useful Store of Value then the price of it has to be at least a little predictable. You know so that I can pay you today for a hamburger on Tuesday. Business depends upon paying when you have money to get what you need when you need it (usually when you don't have money). If the value of the currency varies wildly over a short period of time then these deals fall apart as one person or the other is invariably screwed by overpaying or underpaying as the value of the unit of exchange is about as constant as a drunk stumbling home from the bar. On November 7th a Bitcoin was worth something like $6,973 on the 12th it was worth $5,845 and on the 17th it was worth $7,843. Good luck trying to figure out the future value of the currency or trying to figure out how much you can spend now and still cover groceries next week.

People aren't buying Bitcoin to store value, they're buying to speculate. Think about it, if you sold bitcoin on the 7th, bought that same bitcoin back on the 12th and then sold it again on the 17th then you would have made money. THAT action is a major driving force in the value of the currency, and that is also a problem.

That brings us to the final function of a currency and the one that the Bitcoin has made the most headway, as a medium of exchange. Bitcoins are used to buy and sell goods. It is often used as an alternative method of converting currencies to the big banks that tend to charge fees to change currencies. It's also used in a variety of transactions that require some degree of secrecy. These are good uses.

So, one of the reasons why Bitcoin is a problem is because there are two uses. The first are the standard currency uses that will keep Bitcoin going as long as it is useful for those purposes. The second is the speculative bubble, people who buy a coin for the purpose of selling it at a later date to make a profit (as opposed to a purchase). It's really hard to separate the two because often the people who make the trades themselves don't know.

But, as a general rule, look for a crash whenever the value of the Bitcoin rises rapidly without a corresponding increase in adoption of velocity of transaction.

This news just in:
Quote

Robina, don't get me wrong; I'm quite satisfied with what I've so far gained with BTC (paper value so far) and the blockchain for me is one of the most important concepts of software I've ever seen. Unfortunately, as can seen above, at the moment BTC is absolutely useless as a currency.

Quote
Finally, it is hard to see what would stop central banks from creating their own digital currencies and using regulation to tilt the playing field until they win. The long history of currency tells us that what the private sector innovates, the state eventually regulates and appropriates.
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/bitcoin-long-term-price-collapse-by-kenneth-rogoff-2017-10

One of things that has recently excited Bitcoin types is Japan's new regulations on virtual currencies.   As far as I can tell, much of the excitement is misplaced. 

The banks are working on their own blockchain currency. Check out Ripple. Will it work? Who knows.






I doubt it, the one to watch is IOTA, no fees, a different take on blockchain.  Bitcoin won't replace currency, it will be more like gold a store of value.  I'm betting on vergecoin to deliver everything bitcoin hasn't.

Offline Georgesoros

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 07:21:10 PM »
Whoa Robina!!
Its heading to $15K..

13.00 USD in 2012.

How much was it when you bought?

Bitcoin is here to stay. These are teething problems caused by greed. Currency is for transacting, trading and saving - not a commodity, stock or investment like greedy speculators are doing with cryptos. The blockchain came up after 2007-09 financial crisis when folks lost faith in the Fed. Bitcoin is a true market currency because there is no Fed to stabilize it - totally depends on supply and demand. So I don't see folks discarding cyrptos - in fact there are people buying Bitcoins and Ethereums big right now during this fake meltdown. Bitcoin saved wikileaks and other pariahs who work under water. The secrecy and independence are unprecedented. Growing acceptance by states and business will make it stable with time.

In short I will not sell my BTC.

Offline Empedocles

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 07:30:52 PM »
Whoa Robina!!
Its heading to $15K..

>$17k, and the unconfirmed transactions have climbed from ~80'000 to 194'000 and climbing fast since this morning. BTC is not able to handle the volumes currently running through it.

Offline Empedocles

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 07:35:04 PM »
I doubt it, the one to watch is IOTA, no fees, a different take on blockchain.  Bitcoin won't replace currency, it will be more like gold a store of value.  I'm betting on vergecoin to deliver everything bitcoin hasn't.

I'd mentioned IOTA already above as a good investment. Vergecoin isn't bad either, a rock-solid team behind it and doesn't have scaling issues.

Offline bryan275

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Re: BitCoins - the Ponzi scheme of the modern era
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 09:34:37 PM »
I doubt it, the one to watch is IOTA, no fees, a different take on blockchain.  Bitcoin won't replace currency, it will be more like gold a store of value.  I'm betting on vergecoin to deliver everything bitcoin hasn't.

I'd mentioned IOTA already above as a good investment. Vergecoin isn't bad either, a rock-solid team behind it and doesn't have scaling issues.

Sorry, I'm reading on the phone, I'd skimmed over some posts.   Apologies